S60 Open to new features

And this functionality is coming to N95 without 8GB...when? :)

Having used both, I still prefer emTube for watching YouTube videos, to be honest. It's faster and more direct. But kudos to Nokia for giving us all the option now 8-)

NTW, emTube freeware is at http://www.emtube.yoyo.pl/

Ciao,

here is my example of WRT+FL3 integration:
http://www.biskero.org/?p=2076

Alessandro

wow....it's a great news...!! i'm wondering why nokia doesn't release an official changelog...and we have to find improvements... :)

;)

Hello, I will try to copy my questions from Tommi's blog to here which I wrote just a few hours before your blog entry about this firmware upgrade.
As a warm up until then here is a questions:
Can the upgraded browser save web pages, or data (text, pictures, flash video) from the pages?

Thanks and best regards!
Aron

Aron,

It's possible to save a page (with images) for off-line usage. This does not, however, include possible flash or other plug-in content.

You can also save individual images from a page. Go to the area of image you want, select "Tools - View Images", open the image in viewer and save it.

Both of these have been features of S60 Browser already for some time, so they are not related to this particular FW upgrade.

br. Mikko

Hello Mikko,

This was such an interesting answer that I decided to postpone copying my questions from Tommi's blog for one entry:

Can you please clarify your statement:
"Both of these have been features of S60 Browser already for some time"

The lack of the possibility of saving web pages has been a major complaint earlier and I did not know that saving web pages have been possible for a long time. We have checked with a friend his N95 a few month ago when it was not possible to save web pages... or we just did not find out how???

Can you please state how long the saving of web pages from the S60 browser has been available?

Can you please name a few devices (with corresponding firmware number) in which the saving of web pages have been available?

Thank You and Best regards!
Aron

p.s.: I copy my entry about the N95 firmware upgrade from Tommi's blog to here next time.

Hi Aron,

'Save page' function was originally introduced in the "old" S60 browser (Services) sometimes during the 2nd Edition already. It found it's way to the new, open source based browser in S60 3rd Edition FP1, when the two browsers got merged to one. This means that you can find it in devices like N95, E51, 6120, Samsung i450, LG KS10, etc.

You can find this function under the "Tools" submenu. When you select "Save page" from there, the browser will save your current page to your device. You can return to them through the Bookmarks menu, where you should see a folder called "Saved pages".

Here's an extract from the browser product description
"The Browser menu contains a snapshot function that saves the current page,
including images and background sounds, to persistent storage so that it can be
viewed at a later time, when the user is offline. Snapshot entries are accessible
by other local applications."

br. Mikko

Thank You Mikko!

Good news and great to know that saving of web pages is available in the S60 browser! One more reason to release the standalone browser for FP0 devices also. Do you think we could get the latest browser in S60 V3 FP0 phones like the E70 too?

There is a long history behind my question. It dates back to Tommi's entry about upgrading S60 V3 from FP0 to FP1. He stated that he believes it will not be possible. The main message was that firmware upgrades do not provide Feaure Pack (FP)software version upgrades.

After that a heated discussion developed - mostly focusing around the "upgradeablity" of the browser - meaning that the fixes to the browser could only come through the firmware upgrade, so "frozen" main software (no FP upgrade) might lead to frozen browser (see, whether the E70 will be able to save web pages). A few month later this has lead to the idea of stand alone browser in another blog, which has been "promised" in several forums - the idea has been picked up by mainstream blogers - but has not arrived since.

So how do you see it? Will the saving of web pages and Flashlite 3 in the "S60 Web browser" come to S60 V3 FP0 devices?

The reason I am asking with some hope is that your post about the firmware upgrade of the N95 8GB hints that FP-upgrade with firmware upgrade has just become an option. I conlude that from the fact that Widgets have been anounced as an FP2 feature so making them available for an FP1 device through a firmware upgrade constitutes to a "FP upgrade with firmware upgrade".

How do you see this?

Is there hope that FP0 devices would also receive the latest browser and Flashlite 3?

Thanks & Best Regards!
Aron

Hi Aron,

This is a question we here a lot - and it's a tough one to crack. Let me share my views on this from the S60 point of view, to raise some heated discussion again :)

One of the key design principles of S60 is to allow for differentiation between various devices, and this variation in the devices makes it really difficult for us as S60 to provide generic update possibility for all applications and functionality. E.g. different screen resolutions may require layout changes in certain applications (check e.g. E90 phonebook), some sensors can be integrated to application usage (orientation in the N95 camera), etc. They all require device specific changes in those applications. So, the final responsibility on what ships in different firmware releases is very much within the individual phone products.

There's a lot we can do in S60 to make it easier - in terms of more independent and modular way of developing new functionality - and we have implementd lot's of improvements in that front (and will be implementing more). Good examples are Flash Lite 3 and Web Runtime now available in a 3rd Edition FP1 based product, although not part of that particular sofware release.

I understand the point about "standalone browser" as a way for us, the S60 team, to avoid the need to go to device specifics and not having to change the firmware of the device. Such a "standalone browser" could behave like any add-on browser (Opera, NetFront, etc.). It's user experience would not necessarily be quite as good as with the firmware based browser (as it would be missing the possible device specific enhancements and optimizations), and then there is the obvious question if this should become the default browser and replace the one in firmware? If not, then the user experience is definitely more poor than with the firmware browser. Flash Lite 3 you can already download in this fashion to any 3rd Edition device from Adobe labs - and you will see that the user experience is not as good as with the firmware based version, as it doesn't integrate e.g. to browser or screensaver functionalities... But if we do replace the firmware based version, then we are basically talking about firmware update again e.g. in terms of possible device specific enhancements, dependencies between browser and the rest of the device firmware, liability and support issues for all operator/ country specific variants, etc. - and we come back to the individual phone products having the responsibility on this.

So what is left from this lengthy discussion - in my mind two options:

1. Phone product specific firmware upgrades introducing new versions of applications. Early examples visible now with the latest N95 8GB firmware version. In S60 we want to make this possible, but in the end this is very much a business decission by each individual phone product. For your specific question on 'basic' 3rd Edition based devices getting newer version of the browser. Wouldn't count too much on that, since the overall browsing architecture changed a lot when moving to FP1 (from two browsers to just one) and this is not necessarily a very simple change to implement for 3rd Edition devices.

2. A standalone, generic, secondary browser installable as a .sis file. I'm sure this could be done, but this is very much different business than were are today as a platform vendor. So can't really promise anything on this front either ...

br. Mikko

My only hope is that my E61i's firmware will one day become an FP1 (or FP2!) device... Seriously... a device with full QWERTY is a great device for mobile web-surfing; a device with the old numeric keys is not.

If not... I hope they can at least fix the camera shutter/sound lag on this thing.

Hello Mikko,

Thank You for the detailed answer.

I will also try to answer you in details, hopefully tomorrow.

Thanks & Regards!
Aron

Hello Mikko,

This line of discussion seems to become the summary of the developments of the last year or so in my eyes.

You start your answer explaining that generic updates are difficult to create as devices are different. However I have noticed that the 10 digit number of the latest firmware for the
E70,
E61,
E60
are identical. Do I draw the right conclusion that these devices are running the same software?
Much like PC operating systems can run on different hardware with the same collection of driver sets to be utilized with different hardwares.

I also noticed that while hardwer wise the E61i stands closest to the E70 it has a totally different firmware number. And so it has a much more stable software... I used to say that the E61i software is so stable (running for days with 20 mb system ram, while the E70 requires daily re-boots), that I see it as an FP1 device with an FP0 dressing.

Warm up question:
Put this in short, can you please answer whether the E70 could get the bulletproof software of the E61i?

Than you continue your answer quoting the fact that is the title of the entry: flash lite 3 coming to N95 8Gb...

Do you agree that this + the ability to run Widgets is practically an FP1 to FP2 update with a firmware upgrade?

Why not than to update the FP0 devices to FP1?

And here I have to explain a little bit. I think we can write it in stone that this whole discussion line and our little debate here is about user experience and user support. For example when I bought my E70 in December 2006 I was taking care that I get the 2 years nokia guarantie coming with the phone. I supposed that this will mean technical support also...

So where do I stand with my E70 now:
- I still like it a lot, I have learned a lot about it (e.g.: I can improve WLAN reception to almost "laptop levels" with a trick), and I tuned it into a versatile pocket computer with the addition of some 3rd party software also.

- I see "world changing" potential in it with a few already potentially available upgrades which seem easy technically: FP1 upgrade, including? SDHC support, A2DP, Flash lite 3, etc...

...

Now that you understand how I look at my device, here is the major issue about software support and upgrades:

Several web sites about symbian have concluded that FP1 is practically "just" a bug fix for FP0. Especially memory handling. (see my E61i feeling)

The message - between the lines - from both Tommi and You is that FP1 upgrade for FP0 devices will not be an option.

If the two statements above are correct I can conclude that to get the bug fixes for FP0 is not an option.

You explain in detail the challenges about managing software for several devices. To me it seems that although releasing FP1 for FP0 devices is a business decision (mostly marketing)this seems to be the easiest way of handling bug fixes.

Now about your browser and upgradeability of it. As I wrote in the beginning, this discussion is turning into a summary of the last year during which I have emphasized all too often my view of the role of the S60 browser in S60 success story. Let me repeat it one more time: In my opinion the S60 browser is the corner stone of S60 V3's success. I belive that the Intenet in the pocket concept is such a real teaser that it has become a major selling point for S60. The iPhone shadowed it a bit but technically competent people know that the iPhone could not handle even the lightest Flash sites while you are now distributing Flashlite 3...

And this is why refusing the bug fixes and new plugins in the browser is such a shame! Your message - which has a rhyme to the message about the FP1 upgrade - is that it is technically challenging due to the differences of FP0 and FP1. To put it in perspective the translation according to some symbian experts is: you cannot get the fix in your browser because you cannot get the fix in your operating system...

I think I have expressed my point clearly.

Last but not least I want to state: Nokia has delivered many revolutionary devices and in recent history it created the E70 also which we must call a pocket computer to serve it justice. I simply see it as "revolution in itself". I also got such nice godies onto it after the purchase which I did not expect that I must say I am happy with it even in such sad conclusions I wrote above. Nokia maps, VoIP support (especially Truphone) have been such extras that I will be greatfull for them for very long to Nokia.

Oh yes, and the really last thing: You should consider the power of "real open" source for S60 and the browser... to get the fixes flowing to many devices with little investment in manpower...

Best Regards!
Aron

Thanks Aron for your detailed post.

I agree on many points, but not on the role of S60 Feature Packs - they are not bug fix releases. Their role is really to bring new functionality to the platform. Of course, if we find bugs in earlier releases they hopefully are corrected in these newer FPs, but that is not the reason for their existense, and bugs should be corrected on whatever release they might be found at.

So I would not agree that bringing Flash Lite 3 and Widgets to FP1 devices is an update from FP1 to FP2. There is much more in FP2 - in terms of usability (e.g. middle softkey, common SMS/MMS composer, more visible multitasking, timed profiles), personalization options (e.g. slideshow wallpaper), Java support (JSR-248), progressive downloading of content, etc.

And the same applies also from 'basic' 3rd Edition to FP1. To my knowledge, E61i does not have any of the new FP1 features - like the new, single browser (with toolbar, auto complete, etc.), automatic keypad lock, multiple alarms in clock, audio messaging support, etc. So, it's clearly a 'basic' 3rd Edition device.

This, of course, does not mean that bugs shouldn't be corrected. But the way of doing that is not by upgrading to a new FP. I'm unfortunately not aware of the situation with E70, and wether and why the firmware on E61i would be more stable - so can't comment on that specifically. But it's good to note, that those two devices do run the same basic S60 software release.

br. Mikko

@Symbiatch: Stay tuned..

@saxen: Here it is http://europe.nokia.com/A4577225, doesn't mention widgets though..

Hello Mikko,

Thank You for your answer!

I must emphasize that many of the statements I wrote were not only my opinions but I have read similar opinions on the web and discussed with friends who concluded similar ideas.

About the role of FP-s I agree with you what their role should be, however my opinion - and some people on the web and some of my friends seem to have a similar point here - summarized best like its written in the following quote:

"There’s no doubt that Feature Pack 1 offers good feature expansion for S60 platform, but mostly this is correction of mistakes, normal realization of claimed, but unfinished features."

I understood your message that bug fixes should come in forms of normal firmware upgrades, but if we look at how many of those we see for N95 and the E70 the difference is striking. (15 vs. 3)

The fixes performed in the operating system when going from FP0 to FP1 are major. So much so that you also wrote that it would be challenging to release the latest browser for FP0 because that is written for FP1 and there are major differences between the two. For example in memory handling I know there is a huge difference!

As a result I accept your philosophy of firmware upgrades as bug fixes instead of FP upgrades, but than if the bug fix is practically the fundamental part of the new FP than the firmware fix for the old FP should contain the new shiny fixed codes which are the core of the new FP.

Your message was that FP upgrades are not necessarily needed to fix bugs. I agree, but FP upgrades should not neither be limiting factors in what is "allowed to be fixed" in previous FP versions.

And if it would be so, than the FP0 devices could be able to run your shiny new browser with a firmware upgrade. :-)

Similarly like the FP1 devices will be able to watch youtube wideos in the browser without emTube...

Best Regards!
Aron

Just an interesting addition:
As we are discussing about it here is a piece of news to emphasize how important is the browser for S60 and the quality of the browser:

http://blogs.computerworld.com/nytimes_iphone_browser_marketshare

It seems everybody is watching the usage statistics and so S60 browser plays a crucial role in the news.

If you would give the Flashlite 3 to V3 FP0 the kind of news I linked above could not happen again...

I wonder if the statistics would change if Google would have counted the emTube searches from S60 too... ;-)

Thanks for the the updates on here :)

Are there any plans for the n82 to receive the Flash Lite 3 and Web Run-time update as its one of nokia's new flagship products too?

When can we expect the N95-3 to get something similar? :)

Oh crap, I am so sorry. There's a problem with the flickr flash application on the right that tries to reload itself when I hit the submit button. The page never actually redirects after the post is submitted... :(

I second the call for these features to come to the N95-3. Any ETA?